Recognition Certificates

LDS and Jews (I realize you are disparate and unrelated groups)?

Please be clear in your response Thnx If a woman is pregnant, and secular physicians diagnose that the baby is a strong threat to her life and that is very unlikely that she will survive if the infant is born, morally speaking, what is she to do? If a strong country with a powerful milita provides no legal recognition (no marriage certificates or recognition, no rights or protections) to slaves but regards them as "barbarians", "tools", or "possesions", can slaves whom live together (say slaves that sleep in the same house or palace because they share the same master) prescribe and certify their own marriages so as to avoid the sin of producing children out of wedlock (because the country will not provide any recognition to them)? If three miners were trapped underground and one of the miner dies accidentally, and they somehow receive news that they will die if they do not eat because of the period of time that it will take others to rescue them, can they eat the dead person Thanks everyone (LDS & Jews) leonard s, The reference to children being born out of wedlock (which is one issue), also stems from the question on whether non-marital sex or marriages can be justified? REL, Thanks for answering! Marriages do not need legal authoriziation or societal or recognition from the country, if they cannot be obtained? Would this also apply to persons in historical patriarcihcal societies where consent of parents is required by a country's legislation / recognition of marriage (say two persons perform the religious ceremony but can't get their parents to consent so their marriage has no legal status)? Thanks RJ, Indeed, slavery is dehumanizing! But in societies of the past, where slavery was a common phenomenon, what should the slaves do?

Public Comments

1. I am LDS 1- Totally up to her I could never answer that for anyone else. I would pray and fast on it for a while but most likely get rid of the baby. 2 The chances of this situation is that they would find their own way to legitimacize the union. Slaves did that in the US. The whole jumping over the broom ceremony, when in reality their union had no legal binding and their owners could sell them off and their kids off at any time. So yes I think they can 3- Yes they should eat the dead person. Its a matter of survival and hey, that guy is dead already. Not like they killed him.
2. first question, have an abortion ,the only answer life comes first.fetus is not yet a human life. there are no illegitimate children so the question is moot out of wedlock sex is just fine just adultery is banned and since all children are born out of the mother there are no illegitimate children . there is no demand from G-d to marry first. just be faithful when married yes life comes first
3. 1. in Judaism, the mother's life takes precedence. While an unborn child has clear value, and aborting for little or no reason is not considered just. Abortion to save the life of the mother is OK. 2. don't know. 3. It's OK. You are allowed to do what is necessary to survive, as long as it does not cause the suffering of others.
4. I'm Jewish. 1. It is entirely up to the woman. Judaism clearly allows abortion in such circumstances, among others. 2. Not a clue. 3. My guess is yes--the only three things that one *cannot* commit to save a life in Judaism are murder, idolatry and sexual immorality.
5. 1. Have an abortion as commanded by Jewish law. 2. Humans are not possessions. There are laws pertaining to slaves in the Bible, but I don't agree with them. I think the only rule about slaves should be 'don't have any.' 3. I don't think so. It is wrong to defile the dead. I am sure the person could eat some bugs rather than eat the other person.
6. I am a Jew. Firstly one must preserve life, most other commandments come second to that. Therefore an abortion would be not only allowed but also encouraged in that circumstance. Marriage is not necessarily a legal construct, therefore a religious ceremony of their own is acceptable as well. Yes, cannabilism is acceptable if it is certain death otherwise.
7. I'll take your scenarios at face value, and not nitpick or look for ways to "think outside the box" and get around them: 1. In that scenario, abortion is clearly indicated. With extremely few exceptions, the preservation of human life will trump prohibitions. Fetus is not yet a human life. 2. Recognition (or non-recognition) of a marriage by the secular government is irrelevant, regardless of your scenario. There are various ways to perform a Jewish marriage/wedding, and none of them require the government's certification or recognition. If it were not for mundane legal issues, such as health insurance etc., it would be completely meaningless to me whether my marriage was registered or certified by the state. In fact, on my "wedding night", I guess I was technically unmarried by the laws of the state, as we hadn't done that paperwork yet. If I thought there would be a (legitimate) tax benefit to being single, I would be happy to get a secular divorce, and I would be considered (by me and by the Jewish community) as no less married than I am now. (btw - I am assuming that your point is that you are asking what Jewish law is for Jews who cannot get state sanction for their marriage, and that you are not actually looking to address issues regarding treatment of people as possessions, etc.) 3. Eat. With extremely few exceptions, the preservation of human life will trump prohibitions. Edit: If I'm right about what you're trying to get at on the marriage question, you could eliminate all the terrible issues your scenario raises regarding slavery, etc., by tweaking your scenario a bit. Or maybe your question really did have to do with slavery, in which case I missed the point.
8. Judaism is fairly clear on this issue: until the baby is actually born, the mother's health takes priority. If the mother's life is in jeopardy because of the baby, then it is the MOTHER that must be saved. This changes once the baby is being delivered; once it is visible and exists independently.
9. I am LDS... 1 - There are only 2 circumstances in which the Mormon church condones abortion. 1) If the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest. 2) If the health of the mother is in serious jeopardy. In the first situation, if the mother is not wanting anything to do with the baby, she is encouraged to have the baby and put it up for adoption. But ultimately the choice is hers. Alot of fasting and prayer go into these heavy decisions and are based on the answers received. 2) Yes, that is perfectly fine. It happened several times during Apartheid in South Africa where I served my LDS mission. Even today in post-Apartheid South Africa the church respects certain traditions/customs concerning marriage. In certain tribes in South Africa there is a tradition where a payment is made on a future wife called labola. Labola is a tradition meant to prove that the man is capable and has the means to support a wife and family, it is paid in the form of cows, money or whatever else is agreed on. As soon as an agreement on the labola is made between the future husband and the future father-in-law then she begins living with her future husband. The actual marriage is not official or celebrated until the labola has been paid in full. Sometimes it takes years and years to pay off the labola to the father of the woman. The LDS church recognizes it as a marriage when an agreement on labola has been made (this is when the bride and groom dedicate themselves to each other) and the woman begins living with her future husband, not the actual marriage. Obviously the church does not condone traditions/customs that are immoral in nature. 3) I have no idea where the church stands on an issue like that. As for myself I think I would rather starve. Hope this helps!
10. Okay, my opinion is: If the woman is going to die from birth, I think she should probably get an abortion. I would definitely get some second opinions first though, and do a lot of praying. I think you should be willing to submit to government, but only to a certain point. Governments are for the betterment of society, but such a country is obviously not being fair or right to all of its citizens. I also believe that marraige is a right every individual should have. As such, I would see no problem with these slaves certifying their own marraiges. I can't think of any scriptures that really address this. In such a serious, desperate situation I also believe that what is right and wrong is not so black and white. If I had died and my two friends could live, by eating my leg or something, while they waited for help I would totally want them to. No sense in everyone dying, so I'd say yea, they can eat the dead person, in such an extreme circumstance. I'm a born, raised, and practicing mormon by the way.